New York’s strong gun laws make state safer than weaker states of Arizona and Texas

The gun nuts, especially in Arizona, will argue with you until they are blue in the face that because the state’s gun laws allow just about anyone to own a gun and carry it around concealed to just about anyplace they want, including bars, that the state is a safer place for it.  They would be wrong.  In a recent Wall Street Journal Letter to the Editor, Richard Reay of Riverdale, NY, made his point by using the 2010 FBI Violent Crime Statistics report.



NY Mayor Bloomberg for gun control



As an example, there are 408.1 violent crimes and 6.4 murders/manslaughters in Arizona per 100,000 population compared to 392.1 and 4.5 in New York.  In the same comparison, Texas is 450.3 and 5.0.  Reay’s letter was reacting to the typical inaccuracy of a gun freak who spews out whatever garbage the National Rifle Assn. (NRA) tells him to.  The guy, a Californian named Dave Culver, was ranting over the fact that the people of New York were less safe because they had been disarmed by their civic leaders.
To add to Culver’s misinformation, Reay tells us that gun-related robberies and aggravated assault in New York were around 20 percent and 25 percent that of Texas and Arizona, respectively.  (also in FBI Crime Statistics)  With the population growth of cities like Phoenix, Dallas and Houston, the density rate is adding to the problem, and when you give anyone in those metropolitan areas a handgun that asks for it, you are just asking for trouble.
If you want to check out gun laws by state, Wikipedia has excellent access to the data with facts on each facet of buying and carrying a handgun.  For example, New York requires a permit to purchase, the owner must register the weapon, assault weapons are not allowed and there is a limited conceal carry law; you cannot carry a gun into a bar or state offices or government buildings. 
AZ concealed permit no one needs
In direct contrast, Arizona requires no permit to purchase, registration is limited to federal laws, assault weapons are allowed, and anyone, literally anyone, can walk around with a concealed weapon.  Texas laws are very similar to Arizona but the latter stands out as the state with the most lax gun laws in the U.S.  In a ranking by The Daily Beast, Arizona ranked second in gun deaths per 100,000 pop., Texas 23 and New York 45.
The facts don’t lie and don’t talk to me about recent reports that overall crime is down in the U.S.  That would be right but there is still absolutely no excuse for even one murder due to a handgun being in the wrong hands, much less the recent massacres in Tucson and at Virginia Tech.  The above reports even came with the news that shootings—yes, that would require a gun—of law enforcement officials has increased for the second year in a row, 23 percent in 2011.
Common sense suggestions on gun control from Delaware Gov. Jack Markell below:
Paul Helmke, former Mayor of Ft. Wayne, Indiana and also a recent President of The Brady Campaign, exclaims that an astonishing 40 percent of guns are purchased without a background check.  To illustrate this, the state of Indiana does not require documentation to either sell or buy firearms.  On the other hand, California is ranked number one for its universal background check system, dealer regulations and assault clip ban. 
And there is where we should start with more gun control.  Ban large capacity magazines like the ones used in Tucson and at Va. Tech.  Require a background check for every firearm purchase to stop mentally ill from getting them.  Close the gun show loophole where private dealers have to require little or no information to purchase a weapon.  By the way, Indiana is tied for 38th according to the Brady Campaign when it comes to laws preventing gun violence.

With the above revelations, you would think that at least progressive congressional Democrats would get behind legislation for at least the three issues above.  And where has President Obama been on gun control since his election and his reaction to Gabby Giffords shooting?  The American public has also softened on gun control, that is until one of their own is taken from them.  Yes, hindsight can be a great thing but in this case, it is too late.

37 thoughts on “New York’s strong gun laws make state safer than weaker states of Arizona and Texas”

  1. No offense intended, but sometimes, the so called good Samaritans are the ones to worry about. Trayvon Martin's killer thought he was being a good Samaritan and ended up killing a young man who was walking home and talking to his girl friend on the phone. I'm Hispanic and I used to be a boxer, so I don't look like gorgeous George. I've nearly been pepper sprayed several times while jogging in the park in the evening. Believe me when I tell you, as a person of color, I'm much more afraid of a guy with a John Wayne complex than I am of actual criminals. That being said, having survived the New York of the 80's when we had the crack epidemic, I can understand why anyone living under those conditions would own a gun.

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  2. Hi jack, why do gun control advocates call men and woman who just want to safeguard there loved ones and be there own first responders gun nuts or bubbas and also herd the term oh your one of them, that is so bizarre, and to say we don't budge is freaky, there are 20,000 gun laws that we nuts had to budge for, I am a gun nut from the southeast and I can't find this pipeline of illeagle guns flowing to the north for the life of me, it took me five days to get a .22 caliber rifle from Walmart, also see alot of law enforcement officers who are not that great a shot, I will rather have bubba behind the trigger if they shoot in my direction, but I'm sure if liberals get there way because they usually cry the most, all guns will diss spear and all sharp objects will have rounded tips and maybe we can have cars that are made from environmentally safe styrofoam and we will all live happily ever after while on our Knees bowing down to our well spoken ruler Osama in our new utopia, do you think that operation fast and furious might of put some guns in the hands of know drug cartels who operate in that area, thank Eric holder osamas homeboy for the poor border agent who was shot with one of those 1,500 guns that the gun control advocates needed to walk across the border unmolested so it could be traced to some gun nuts and prove how right you are about more gun control, maybe 20,001 laws will be the magic number for you guys

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  3. This is all I will say to all your recent comments. Not only is gun control not wrong, it is so right because someone else will be killed today where i live with a handgun that was obtained due to loose gun laws and that is wrong.

    Jack E. Dunning

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  4. Its funny that in your blog you cite the Daily Beast article which if you actually read is pointing out that gun control laws are rarely effective in crime prevention and often make matters worse. But I guess you just like the numbers. Like others pointed out those “gun deaths” include suicides and let me just point you to a Harvard Law paper regarding that and gun control. http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

    Now to sum that paper up for those of you too lazy to read, it points there is no empirical proof that gun control affects suicide rates and that in the absence of guns the suicides are done by a different method. Additionally suicide by a gun is not even the most common method when attempts are included in the data.

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  5. Felt like adding more information for you just to show a comparison. All numbers are from FBI Crime reports per the year specified.

    State Year Violent Crimes (Per 100,000) Homicides (Per 100,000)
    New York 2010 392.1 4.5
    New York 2009 384.7 4
    New York 2008 398.1 4.3
    New York 2007 414.1 4.2
    New York 2006 434.9 4.8
    New York 2005 445.8 4.5

    Arizona 2010 408.1 6.4
    Arizona 2009 408.3 5.4
    Arizona 2008 447 6.3
    Arizona 2007 482.7 7.4
    Arizona 2006 501.4 7.5
    Arizona 2005 513.2 7.5

    2005 was when news agencies nationwide started reporting about Mexican drug cartel violence spilling into U.S. Each the percentage of change in Arizona is greater than New York. During this same time span Arizona has introduced two new gun control measures, one in allows permit holders to enter restaurants and bars with their concealed carry weapons, two introduced constitutional concealed carry to the state. Lets look at New York, from what I could find during this same time span New York implemented no new gun control laws, plenty of campaigning but no real implementation for or against gun control. New York has also had a steady drop in violent crime per capita however their homicides remain steady. Now one can draw the conclusion that in a state with less gun control crime rates drop faster than in states with stricter gun control. Additionally to support making this conclusion compare Chicago pre-handgun ban and post. Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the Chicago murder rate has averaged 17% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 25% lower.

    Overall the U.S. crime rates have been dropping since their peek in the 90s. Also since this peek in the 90s the amount of restrictions on lawful citizens owning and carrying firearms has relaxed nationwide. What I demonstrated above is just a sample of the surprising fact that in states with less strict gun controls laws the crime rates have dropped faster than in states with stricter gun control policies. Among peer-reviewed academic studies by criminologists and economists, 18 find that right-to-carry laws reduce violent crime, 10 claim no effect, and just one claims one type of crime increases slightly. A list of the majority of those studies are here (http://johnrlott.tripod.com/surveyofrtcliterature.pdf).

    I am sorry to inform you that in this case the “gun nuts” are not the ones who are often the “nuts” or to quote you, “no room for negotiation.” You see with the overwhelming statistical data refuting your conclusions you still remain stead fast in them. Everyone makes mistakes, I am not trying to insult your intelligence (even though you have multiple times insulted the people on the opposing side), even Einstein once believed the universe did not expand. Gun control is one of those theories that has been proven wrong over time. Same as the earth is flat.

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  6. @Jack E. Dunning

    The comparison by Daily Beast is a common “Confusing Cause and Effect” logical fallacy. Now as for saying Mississippi has more homicide from firearms is because their gun laws is also a logical fallacy, lets look at another state with similar gun laws and population (both total and density). Iowa, this state is near the bottom of homicide from firearms in the nation. Iowa has in fact almost 4 times less firearm related homicides then New York. How about Illinois, it has stricter laws on firearms then New York and has similar population densities, yet they have 4.59 per 100,000 (DOJ, 2004). Also I don't know where you got your 18.3 statistics because I can only find 5.55 per 100,000 for Mississippi. Additionally above Mississippi is Maryland and Louisiana. Maryland has stricter gun control laws then Mississippi.

    Beyond the per capita statistics lets look at raw numbers. Arizona, 406 Homicides total, New York, 866 Homicides total, California, 1,809 Homicides total. California actually has a higher population density than New York. Throughout your responses you refute other peoples statements that contradict your conclusions based on density and so forth. That is why per capita rates exist. They are a statistical method of showing figures without population bias.

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  7. Gun deaths include suicides. That people commit suicide is not a reason to restrict people's access to dangerous items. Free societies ought not do things like that for people's own good.

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  8. I showed a comparison by Daily Beast from a study done by the Legal Community Against Violence which clearly illustrates a correlation between gun deaths and permissive gun laws. As an example, Mississippi is first with gun deaths 18.3 per 100,000 pop. followed by Arizona second with 15 and also number one as state with most permissive gun laws.

    We could go on with your figures/my figures all day, Sebastian, but the fact remains that gun violence is a reality in the US today and the American public is slowly realizing this and will soon take action.

    Peace!

    Jack E. Dunning

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  9. Just adding additionally, just above you wrote, “You are right about violent crime and as a former Californian for many years can only equate this to density similar to that of New York, Texas cities like Dallas/Houston and Phoenix, Arizona.” In your statement there you said the density rates made them similar, however, after the numbers show validity to the opposing side as yours you retort your similar density statement and say they are not similar densities. You call us gun nuts because the numbers generally support our thesis. This is opposite of how the sides of issues are generally categorized as “nuts.”

    Bottom line don't make up excuses for why the numbers don't support your thesis. Not all thesis are right.

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  10. You want to say density rates negate the statistics that disprove your hypothesis. If we are going to play that game then you must disregard the higher numbers in Arizona because they include incidents from the infamous boarder drug wars. So those numbers are much higher due to the drug cartels and their alarming violence on both sides of the border, a problem that does not exist in New York. I mean there are 100 times more violence from drug cartels that spill over the border in Arizona than in New York. At least accept the data that contradicts yours.

    I am surprised you didn't mention since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the Chicago murder rate has averaged 17% lower than it was before the law took effect.
    I guess this is because the national average dropped 25% during the same period.

    Or that since the handgun ban in Chicago the number of murders with a handgun have risen 40%.

    As far as the nothing to do with concealed carry can be said to be the reason there is lower rates in the metro areas. I cite a survey for my proof of why it does. A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:
    34% had been “scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim”
    40% had decided not to commit a crime because they “knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun”
    69% personally knew other criminals who had been “scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim”

    40% did not commit a crime from fear of the target having a gun… so concealed carry has nothing to do with lower crime numbers? Come on…

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  11. When comparing world wide statistics you must remember how the stats are tracked. I will give one example, the FBI tracks all homicides as homicides even if they are ruled by a court as a lesser charge or even as an accident. Most other countries do not track the stats in the same way. For example, Britain tracks all homicides throughout the judicial process and if the homicide is dropped to a lower charge or even rules an accident they no longer track it as a homicide.

    If you look at the top three countries for overall crime according to the The Eighth United Nations Survey on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems it paints a different picture. However, please remember these are just number that are reported to the UN by the countries so there is still the issue of how the stats are tracked by the individual country.

    *Note I used only the 2002 data for simplicity.

    1. United States
    Total crime reported: 11,877,218 (per 100,000: 4,118.76)

    2. United Kingdom
    Total crime reported: 6,523,706 (per 100,000: 11,014.38)

    3. Germany
    Total crime reported: 6,507,394 (per 100,000: 7,888.23)

    Now to say these numbers are directly related to gun control would be stretching it. You would need several years of this data from before and after gun control measures in each country to even begin drawing conclusions from it. I would like you to read this article.

    *Note before reading Britain banned private ownership of handguns in 1996.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

    I hope giving you an article from a source within the country at question gives it more credibility in your eyes.

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  12. Jack I am glad that our opinions are understood and respected, since that is how democracy functions. Yet I am sadden that you do not trust the Good Samaritan nature of honest men. I wish for my nation to become a safer place to live, but due to the apathy of good men evil prevails. I would gladly sacrifice my life to protect my fellow man from those who rape, steal, or murder. We must become the change the we wish to see in the world. Remember that criminals will still conceal weapons, even if you deny me the right. For they are not trying to defend themselves, but harm you and me.

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  13. If you don't cherry pick which states you want to compare, but compare across the board, there's no correlation to murder and gun ownership levels, or guns laws:

    http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/10/06/ask-and-you-shall-receive-murder-rates/

    and also:

    http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/10/06/debunking-maigs-latest-study/

    There is, essentially, no correlation between gun laws and murder or violent crime, or gun ownership levels and murder or violent crime.

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  14. Good point. According to the National Institute of Justice (DOJ) firearms were used in 68 percent of murders. Throughout the world, the United States is number 4 in murders with firearms out of 46, behind only So. Africa, Columbia and Thailand. I would say that is pretty significant.

    Jack E. Dunning

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  15. Alan…

    Thank you for your careful thoughts and I do respect your views because, based on your situation and your environment, I know you believe them. If those in your neighborhood feel safer with citizens as militia on the streets, there's not much I can say. You are right about the gun training but that cannot begin to equal that of law enforcement, thus, putting other citizens in harms way if your judgment is bad. I am afraid I could never condone any citizen concealed carry on the street but at least we agree to disagree.

    Thanks for your comments Alan.

    Jack

    Jack E. Dunning

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  16. Jack I am glad we found equal ground, but I think you misunderstood my stance on conceal-carry. “If I see a crime on the street, I follow the law, and try to help”. How do you think I defend myself and others on the street without my handgun. I am not a killer, I have seen what guns can do when used for evil and I wish to put a stop to it by following the law and using lethal force “on the street” when I am allowed and required. Nothing stops a criminal quite like the will to defend yourself. That doesn't mean I can go all “Punisher” on crimanals, for then I would be just as prideful and evil as the crimanals. Remember that those who have CHL's have been trained by police officers in the use of force and the laws behind it. So to be fair, wouldn't you like to know that one in twenty citizens is willing to help you if you are beening robbed, raped, or killed. And that they are proficiently trained by the law (at least in Texas), to defend themselves. Is It not a view that is win win since you are not force to carry or help others but some of your peers choose to do so? Remember that criminals are not trained and are willing to carry without your approval or knowledge any way.

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  17. @Jack E. Dunning

    You cannot interject your opinion into statistics without undermining your own argument. I am referring to your assumption that the murder rates are closely related to the murder rates that involve handguns. You cannot make that assumption on the FBI statistics be cause they are categorized by the crime and not the instruments in which the crime was conducted.

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  18. Anyone can pick and choose stats to validate their argument. Lets look at the Metropolitan area stats from same source (FBI, 2010) specifically in Phoenix and New York.

    Phoenix – Violent Crime per 100,000
    370.8

    New York – Violent Crime per 100,000
    391.9

    Difference in Metro areas… Phoenix has constitutional concealed carry, New York has a no handgun policy… Gee that seems to lean towards those “crazy” “gun nuts” side…

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  19. To japete…

    Thank you for your comment. I have considered blocking anonymous comments like some of these blockheads but then I wouldn't have my daily roll on the floor laughing. It also helps me realize just how pathetic some of these gun bubbas are and seems to put the whole thing into better perspective.

    Going to check your site and will get back to you.

    Jack

    Jack E. Dunning

    **********************

    To Alan Perez…

    I agree with you 100% if you want a gun in your home to protect yourself and your family. And it sounds like you know how to use it. What I disagree with 100% is your right to take your gun out on the street because you couldn't possibly have adequate training like law enforcement unless you are a former cop, then you do have a valid permit.

    Jack E. Dunning

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  20. Since we live in the only country where you are allowed to have different view points I would like to say that no side is right or wrong.It is your liberty as a citizen to choose wither you have a gun or not. And if you want your rights to be respected you must respect others with different view points. But here is what I believe(take it at face value). Have you ever been robbed, raped, house broken in, or have anyone you know have that happen to them. Guess how long it takes for the police to arrive to a crime scene. If you thought five minutes, you off by a good fifth-teen to fifty-five minutes. And unless you like getting fucked over by criminals, a gun(plus training and knowledge of the law)can save your live or those you love. No one forces you to buy a gun, that is a decision you made yourself to practice your right to defense. Don't think that buying a gun is a walk in the park either. For example: It took me a week for the paper work on my Masterpiece Arms Mini-Mac11 to go through. The water and gas bills of the previous three months and my passport were given to the government to check along with my medical record and permanent record. Does this seem like anarchy to you?
    For the Record:
    I live in sunny Houston, Texas.
    In a bad part of town.
    I own firearms for protection and for my right to do so.
    I was trained in their use through practice and drilling myself.
    If see a crime on the street, I follow the law, and try to help.
    I use lethal force when it is legal and necessary to do so.
    Also criminals don't follow gun laws, law-abiding citizens do.
    Who's side are you on Jack and Japete?

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  21. “This also why Vermont is safer than NY”

    It is? You don't need a license to buy, own, or carry a gun in Vermont concealed. Their laws are far more permissive than NY and I am certain that the ownership of firearms, including handguns, is far more prevelant. This lays waste to your argument, it does not support it.

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  22. Thanks for writing this post. I couldn't agree more. I see you are getting similar anonymous comments to the ones on my blog ( commongunsense.com). They often start out by calling me a name and/or insulting me and then turn their anger to me when I come back with something sarcastic after being insulted or bullied. I guess that is civil discourse to the folks who choose to comment without a name attached. The facts are the facts. Arizona has one of the highest rates of gun deaths in the country. They are right up there with many of the Southern and Southeastern states where gun ownership is high and gun laws are loose. Vermont and Alaska, which also have loose gun laws, also have low population densities and lower rates of gun homicide. But if you check the gun suicide rate, you will find that they are quite high in both Alaska and Vermont. Also, in states like New York and California where laws are strict, people who want to get guns easily know they can just drive across the borders to states with looser laws and buy as many guns as they want. There is an “iron pipeline” from states in the Southeast to New York and states to the north. That is why we need a national background check law so this can't happen. But hell will freeze over before the NRA gets on board with anything that might actually save lives. By the way, I had to stop anonymous comments because they got so offensive and threatening. If you write about guns, you will be subject to the ugly vitriol of the pro gun guys who troll through the blogs. Oh, also, the pro gun folks love to confuse violent crime rate with rates of gun death- they are 2 different things.

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  23. You are right about violent crime and as a former Californian for many years can only equate this to density similar to that of New York, Texas cities like Dallas/Houston and Phoenix, Arizona. However, you failed to note that murders in Arizona are 6.4 per 100,000 pop. compared to Calif's 4.9 which is more closely connected to handgun use. This also why Vermont is safer than NY.

    Thanks for your comment.

    Jack E. Dunning

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  24. Jack,

    Your own point internal contradicts. Can you explain why California has a higher violent crime rate (440.6) than Arizona yet has all the controls you so laud in place (and for a while now?)

    -Gene Hoffman

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  25. Whichever anonymous

    Wow, such big words. Look, I have friends who are ardent gun rights advocates and we do discuss the issues. However, they don't start the debate with a “Using your argument (which is childish and exposes your intellect to be far inferior to the average),” such as the first anonymous did. With me, after that it's all downhill. My articles are researched extremely well, but I have found with most of the pro-gun population, you have no room for negotiation and that's when I am out of the conversation.

    Peace!

    Jack E. Dunning

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  26. jdberger, if that's really your name

    Is this a new NRA ploy to turn the attention back on sane gun control advocates, as compared to you lunatics? Not worried about my safety, thus, don't need a gun. I sure don't need some untrained wacko cowboy to protect me. I will go to anger management classes if you people will just check yourselves into the nearest insane asylum.

    Jack E. Dunning

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  27. @jdberger you took the words right out of my mouth. Jack forgets to mention that our crime rate is dropping since the 90s despite an increase in gun sales and that a reason why Arizona's gun death is high is because it is right next to a war zone( Mexico)

    P.s im not the anonymous guy who posted the first comment. Im somome else I just dont feel like creating a profile just to comment

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  28. Wow, Jack. The Anonymous poster made it a point to civilly contradict your data and that's your response? Epithets and invective? Clearly, given your angry retort, they might be concerned about their safety. You do seem a bit unhinged.

    It causes one to wonder if you so fear your anger that you wouldn't trust yourself with a gun – and thus assume that the rest of the world has the same issues with anger management.

    Seek help, Jack. Before you hurt someone. Please.

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  29. Since you are cherry picking data, why not include Vermont? They have had no-license concealed carry forever and their murder rate per 100,000 is 1.1 and the violent crime rate is 130.2. Using your argument (which is childish and exposes your intellect to be far inferior to the average), Vermont is significantly safer than New York because Vermont has no-license concealed carry. After all, we are trying to correlate crime to one particular set of laws. Of course, the data as a whole shows the argument is rubbish because there is no correlation. There are states with few gun laws with higher crime (Arizona, Louisiana) and states with fewer gun laws with low crime (Vermont, Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, almost too many to list). There are states with many gun laws and low crime (New York, Hawaii) and states with many gun laws and high crime (Maryland, DC). I don't see a correlation between gun laws and crime rates at all, just a correlation between urbanization and crime rates.

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